24 April 2010

Opening Pandora’s Apartheid Box – Part 2 - What “diversity” means in South Africa.

By Mike Smith
23rd of April 2010

Nobody can understand Apartheid unless they understand the diversity of the people of South Africa.

Let us start with the whites.

In South Africa there are several groups of whites. The two main groups are the Afrikaans speaking and the English speaking ones.

The Afrikaners are the descendants from mainly Dutch, Flemish, French, German and some other Western European backgrounds. The Afrikaners have a unique culture, their own language and they are mostly protestant.

The English speaking whites of South Africa are from mostly British background. They are made up of English, Scots, Welsh and Irish descendants...as well as a large contingent of ex Rhodesians. These English speaking Whites of South Africa can today not be referred to as British anymore. Very few hold British passports. They developed a unique accent and culture in South Africa and are fully South African today. Their forefathers came to South Africa long before there were any Whites in Australia or New Zealand.

South Africa also has other large white communities such as the Portuguese (300,000), the Greek (+/- 100,000) and the Jewish communities (70,000). They all have their own religions and cultures. The Portuguese are mostly Catholic, the Greeks are orthodox Christians and the Jews are mostly orthodox Jewish.

Further, South Africa has a Chinese population who arrived around 1870 to work in the gold mines until Chinese immigration was stopped by an exclusion act in 1904. The South African Chinese community is about 300,000 strong.

The Cape coloureds are also diverse and complex from a wide variety of backgrounds. Today there are the two main groups, Christians and Muslims. There is about 4 million coloureds in total.

It is commonly understood by most foreigners and also amongst many South Africans, that the coloureds are a mixture of Black and White ancestors. This is false. The coloureds as a group existed long before the Whites saw any Blacks for the first time around 1770 in the Eastern Cape about 1000km from Cape Town. This was 120 years after the Dutch settled at the Cape (1652).

The indigenous people of the Cape were the Khoi Khoi(Hottentots). They were almost 90% annihilated by a smallpox epidemic at the Cape (1703).

The Dutch also imported artisans such as bricklayers, carpenters, etc from Malaysia and Indonesia. These were the Muslims or Cape Malay people. The KhoiKhoi and the Cape Malay also intermarried and interbred. A small percentage of Whites also married coloureds, but it was actually very rare. A large amount of the passing sailors frequented coloured prostitutes. Today the Cape Coloured features vary from dark brown to almost White or yellow and their hair vary from peppercorn curly to straight black. Some have KhoiKhoi features and some Arabic or Malaysian. Today the Muslim and Christian coloureds have distinct and different cultures. Some speak a dialect of Afrikaans and some English.

In Natal we find most of South Africa’s Indian population. They total about one million and are descendants of indentured labourers (for the sugar cane plantations) and traders from India and Sri Lanka. They speak mostly English, but many still speak Tamil, Hindi or Urdu. Their religion is mostly Hindu but many are Muslim.
So far I have not even started with the blacks yet.

Most foreigners believe that South Africa has one group of Blacks that speak one language and have one culture. Nothing could be further from the truth.

South Africa’s Black population is not homogenous. There are several different tribes who all speak different languages and who have distinct and hugely different cultures.

There are main tribes such as the Zulu, Xhosa, Tswana, Venda, Ndebele, Sotho, Swazi and the Shangaan/Tsonga people. But it does not stop there, because these main tribes consist of smaller tribes. For instance the Xhosas are made up of Mpondo, Fingo, Thembu, Bhaca, Nhlangwini and Xesibe tribes. The Sothos are made up of North Sotho (Bapedi) and South Sotho (Basotho) tribes. The Tswanas are only a part of the main tribe known as the West Sotho. Other tribes that make up the West Sotho are the Kwena, Kgatla, Tlhaping, Tlharo, Rolong and Ngwato.

The Venda tribe is made up of mainly the Mphephu and the Lemba, but in total the Vavenda can be bordered off into 27 clearly distinguishable tribes.

The Zulus are made up of about 200 smaller tribes

The Swazis are made up from the Nkosi, Shongwe, Khumalo and Hhlatyawako tribes. The Northern Sothos are made up from the Pedi, Koni, Phalaborwa, Lobedu and Kutswe tribes....

And so I can go on...All in all South Africa has nine official Black languages, with 23 sub categories and innumerable dialects.

Yes, these different tribes of South Africa all have different languages, cultures and belief systems. The Vendas for instance have a special affinity to crocodiles. The Zulus consider themselves as a warrior tribe and they do not circumcise their boys when they are initiated into manhood, they have to kill a bull with their bare hands. The Xhosas on the other hand do circumcise their boys and therefore Xhosas consider Zulus as mere boys regardless of their age.

When a Xhosa and a Zulu work together and they have words, the Xhosa will first and always accuse a Zulu of being a boy, thus not a man.

Another remarkable piece of information that very few people know about is that the Lemba people who form part of the Venda tribe are JEWISH.

No. They did not convert to Judaism after meeting some Jewish immigrants to South Africa. President Kruger found them already with their Jewish belief system going back more than two thousand years. They migrated from the Kenya or Ethiopian regions. South Africa’s black Jews

I hope that the reader can see that South Africa is a palette of people, cultures and religions, but also note that I started with the white people who were leading in the atomic age into Africa and I ended with Blacks who are for all intents and purposes still nomadic Negro tribes stuck in the stone-age.

With this background, is it really so unimaginable and difficult to understand that the way of “Separate development” (Apartheid) was the best and fairest solution for the problems of South Africa?

.../ To be continued


  1. Can't wait for the rest of the series!

  2. Anonymous7:31 am

    Wow, I was going to say something about it, I don't think that people realise the Lemba have some Jewish genes. But it's true. I read about this quite a long time ago, as far as I remember, they're related to the Cohen line, and share a haplotype with Jewish people.

  3. Anonymous7:42 am

    Very interesting read.


  4. speechlessly astounded! WHEN is the rest going to follow dear friend?!!!! Please, please come and continue!!!!!! What amazingly interesting information and incredibly NOTABLE the amount of history "homework" you have done Mike. AGAIN - Thank you for sharing this with us!!
    Please, please continue....

  5. Anonymous7:00 am

    If apartheid crime is a lie, Steve Biko is a figment of imagination, Vlakplaas is in a distant galaxy and Wouter Basson, Dirk Coetzee and Eugene Kok are characters in a nove. You cannot create a lie to cover up history. You cannot recreate your own history. We lived it, we saw it. We survived to tell that it happened. Apartheid crime, like the Holocaust, cannot be wished away. Neither can they be commented off with articles that claim it was inflated. The death of people killed by apartheid agents and confessed by the same cannot be called "bullshit stories". Anyone that defends the crime that was apartheid can only do so because unlike in apartheid people can talk and not be detained. In apartheid any that spoke against apartheid was locked up sometimes never to be seen again. If apartheid crime is a lie, then Mandela did not spend 27 years in prison for speaking the truth, Ruth first did not receive a letter bomb. A person who would challenge the validity of the criminality of apartheid would only be a person defending apartheid. A defender of apartheid defends, detention without trial, murder, torture, arbitrary arrest, illegal imprisonment, exploitation, marginalization, and persecution of South Africans in their own country, relegation to fourth class citizenship, inferior education, job reservation and more horrors. Of course,such a writer would be still dreaming of the return of apartheid.

    1. Anonymous11:37 am

      You are thinking in absolute terms, e.g. Apartheid was bad just as the Haulocast was bad, therefor Apartheid was Halocast. The Apertheid Government has doene bad things, Juast as every other Overnment in the world has done bad things. However that doesn't make Apartheid as bad as the Haulocast, nor as bad and treacherous as the ANC!

    2. Anonymous3:34 pm

      Anonymous 7:00. Firstly Mandela did not spend 27 years in prison "for speaking the truth" he spent it in prison for bombings that killed people and then in spite of being given an option for not renouncing violence."

      Guess what? Whites that exploded bombs in defense of their own peoples rights are being treated the same way by the current government.

      You sound as if the "Struggle" was completely non-violent and it was only the "Racist whites" that sent bombs and used violence.

      Well I'm here to tell you that as children at primary-school we had moulded plastic charts showing the shape and size of all the communist supplied explosive ordinance including, Limpet Mines, Hand Grenades, Land Mines as well as rifles etc that we as small children had to memorise and learn to identify due to MKs cowardly affinity for planting these in primary-schools, shopping centres, post offices to kill and maim children and their mothers.

      That was how you lot "fought" too cowardly to take on the security forces.

      You mention all your points towards the end of your post but fail to mention that these things were done in response to Terror Attacks by your lot. What have you done since then, other then wail about how oppressed you were and are and drag the country into terminal decay. Your own cops shoot you down just like in Sharpeville so what is the common denominator here? Your own politicians are having each other assasinated at a rate the apartheid regime would never have contemplated. Your cops are more corrupt and evil than the criminals. You scream "Racist!" at every opportunity whilst launching racist attacks at every opportunity and from every direction. You decry Racism and laud your "Non Racial Society" all the while having implemented policies that exclude whites from work because of their race.

      You collectively are more morally bankrupt than anyone in the previous regime.


  6. Ah please, save me your sanctimonious bullshit about your Marxist terrorist angels such as Ruth first and Mandela.

    These were terrorists who started a Marxist terrorist war against South Africa. The scum got exactly what they deserved. Mandela, Ruth First, etc were directly responsible for the killing of innocent women and children, of all races, because bombs do not discriminate. The Apartheid government fought and won the original war on terror. We showed the world how to eliminate terrorists. You have to beat them at their own game. Terrorise the shit out of the terrorists. There is no soft way to deal with such scum.
    Mandela spent 27 years in prison for being a terrorist and carrying out terrorist acts against the people of South Africa. He was not fighting for their freedom. He was fighting for their enslavement under communism.

    If you defend Communist trash such as Mandela and Ruth First, then you condone the killings of 100 million people by Communists in the last century. Then you condone the gulags and the ANC hell camps such as Quatro where they tortured and killed thousands of black people, mostly their own supporters.

    You talk about “The Crime of Apartheid”…Till this day not a single person has ever been found guilty of this crime. In Fact in the 1960’s the International Court of Justice in the Hague found SA Not guilty of any crimes against humanity in the SWA case.

    “relegation to fourth class citizenship, inferior education, job reservation and more horrors”

    Where did you get that crap from?
    Carry on reading…learn the truth. Jump ahead a little and go read Part 9 and Part 11 and find out about how blacks lived and were educated under Apartheid.

    No lies here my friend...only the truth. If you choose to ignore it then you are guilty of lying to yourself. That is the biggest sin anybody can commit.

    1. Anonymous6:00 am

      Amen bro

  7. Anonymous3:26 pm

    Mike some people are born in fantasy and they live and die in it too. They never saw any reality in between and they never ever bothered to do a positive thing about it. You have done your homework Mike of that there is no doubt and the message is clear for all to see. There is no better proof of what the communists have done to the African continent than the terrible state the African continent is in today. Decades after obtaining independence the majority of African countries are still politically unstable and poverty is running rife throughout. The same communist processes and procedures were adopted and used time and time again and the reality of the eventual disastrous outcome was totally ignored. S. Africa unfortunately is the country to receive the final thrust of the communist sword. The ANC's sudden turn about and call for "freedom and democracy" was a farce and only done to gain support from the West. It worked for them at the time but as time moved on it soon became very clear that the ANC had no intentions of implementing a democratic system of government at all. In fact I would not be surprised to see an ANC dictatorship implemented in S. Africa within the next few years. The repeated mistakes of the previous African states have not been lessons for learning and the same disastrous mistakes are being repeated once again. One thing for sure though is that what the ANC had promied has not yet materialized and 18 years later the country is in political bondage and hypocrisy. Amidst all of the chaos the ANC are singing praises and patting each other on the back. When one looks back and compares the previous government with the present ANC government then I have no doubt that the average black working class citizen would choose the previous government. How do I I know? They have actually told me so with their own mouths. Straight from the horses mouth as we would say and in light of what they are seeing and experiencing now who can blame them. White apartheid was bad enough but black on black apartheid in a so-called free and democratic society stinks to high heaven.

  8. Anonymous3:09 pm

    From WikiPedia

    Charges were:

    1) Recruiting persons for training in the preparation and use of explosives and in guerrilla warfare for the purpose of violent revolution and committing acts of sabotage

    2) Conspiring to commit the aforementioned acts and to aid foreign military units when they invaded the Republic,

    3) Acting in these ways to further the objects of communism

    4) Soliciting and receiving money for these purposes from sympathizers in Algeria, Ethiopia, Liberia, Nigeria, Tunisia, and elsewhere.

    "Production requirements" for munitions for a six-month period were sufficient, the prosecutor Percy Yutar said in his opening address, to blow up a city the size of Johannesburg.

    The trial was condemned by the United Nations Security Council and nations around the world, leading to international sanctions against the South African government in some cases.

    - o - O - o -

    Pay particular attention to the second and fourth points.


    The view of most of the ignorant, brainwashed people is that Mandela, a sort-of saint, went to jail for virtuously and nobly fighting against white oppression.

    What a Joke.

    I wonder if the UN or the rest of those Tools even bothered to familiarize themselves with the facts surrounding Mandela and the Rivonia trials before they starting their own HATE- sorry, Liberation Campaign.

    Has America or England ever elected a National Traitor to high office?
    Or Self Avowed Murderers?
    Or Unapologetic Jail Birds?

    And that was just the beginning.

    Our Country Has Surely Been Touched By The Gods ....

    1. As an American, I can tell you with absolute accuracy & certainty that Mandela is *worshipped* in this country as a patron-god of equality and freedom. We are taught from a very young age (or at least my generation was anyway) that Mandela is a hero of the most pure variety and that he worked tirelessly for *everyone's* liberty against an evil white-supremacist government. During said "education", I had not heard a single solitary thing about any crimes or wrongdoing that he may have committed whatsoever. We were only told that he was an activist fighting for equality, akin to Ghandi. I had to educate myself to find out these aspects of Mandela's history.

    2. "Has America or England ever elected a National Traitor to high office?"

      No, but we have (apparently) elected an ex-muslim to office (supposedly he's an EX-muslim anyway) at a time when we're under siege by muslim terrorist attacks. It's also still being argued that Barry wasn't (nor was he ever) even eligible for presidency. The media worked over-time to crush that argument and to viciously discredit anyone who even considered the idea. Actually now that I think about it, considering that the last two presidents have demonstrated that they are perfectly willing to work diametrically-opposed to the interests of the American people, one could easily say that we *have* elected traitors. After-all, Bush did lie the country into war and now we have a federal deficit that might as well be $∞.

  9. Anonymous8:44 am

    You are wrong about who the english speaking SA´s are. They are mostly ex british, I grant you, but there are also many other nationalities who settled in Natal for example, and who adopted the english language. My Mother was of Hungerian heritage and my Father a Swede, but they spoke english.
    The biggest insult an Afrikaner could give me is to call me an englander. Fuck the english. I hate them more than the Afrikaners do.

  10. Bunch on lunatics living in their own world, I hope you believe all this trash that you writing.

    1. Mike knows 100% what he is talking about, bravo Mike! The violence did not start with apartheid, it started in 1836 when the Terrorist Mzilikazi Khumalo attacked the Boers at Vegkop. He terrorised the Tswana,Griekwa and Barolong and they eventually joined forces to chase this lunetic coward who stole Shaka's cattle to Zim where he overwhelmed the Shona.No, I am actually wrong as the violence started long before with the cruel Shaka who killed millions of his own people and then like the Xhosa and Mzilikazi's Matebeli, millions of today unknown tribes and also the Sothos including Tswana. That is why Mosjeshe fled to the Drakensberg and stole the land of the San - to find shelter against these savages during Mefacane. It was the Boer who save the Tswana, Baralong, Zwasi and Pondo from extinction. And we rather keep quiet against violence against the whites. Impalement of young children, skinning people alive and cutting mother's wombs open to smash their babies heads thereafter. I am not really a Steve Hoffmeyer fan but he was right in one thing. Only blacks themselves could be blamed for Apartheid.

  11. Anonymous12:50 pm

    I think native South Africans have being very forgiving, Mike, whether you like it or not, natives have the government and you have to live under us, and unfortunately for your children, they'll have to live under us for next coming years after you have died. The problem with your articles is that ,they'll still be around, lets hope they don't end up in the wrong and fuel violence towards other Afrikaner speaking people. You complain about farm killings but it's articles like yours that makes Afrikaner speaking people to be hated. You think things are hard for you, continue writing this bullshit about a history and cultural differences that you don't understand and see what will happen to your people in the future. You just a bitter Afrikaner who can't stomach the fact that he is living under the rule of the natives, grow up, face the facts, wake up and realize we are not going back to the white rule, next that is coming is to chase them away from this country unless they cooperate and return the stolen lands.

    1. The problem is, as you say yourself, you want the white people to "live under us". You don't even bother to deny or sugar-coat your desire for black-supremacy to the slightest degree, do you?

    2. And actually, they don't *have* to "live under you". They can leave - what's going to happen is, all of the white people are going to flee (as they have already been doing) and soon SA will be just another irrelevant third-world shit-hole that nobody cares about beyond how much aid $ it gets from other *real* nations. Such a shame because, at one point, SA was almost a first-class place. I mean cripes, they had nuclear weapons! Weeeellll that's all in the past. Give it up already and come to live in UK and US, white South Africans! We can sure use you here (also your women are quite attractive!). ;)

  12. Native South African? You mean Afrikaners are NOT native? Ma language started on this continent. It is not spoken anyware else in the world. The Afrikaner culture with their volkspele and boeremusiek, you will not find anyware else in the world. Afrikaners are the original multiculturalists, having developed from Many cultures languages and history, but the point is that Afrikaners named themselves and their language after the continent where it originated. Unlike British, portuegeuse, or greeks, Afrikaners have no other home but SA.

    Now how native are you? Where did your ancestors float from? The trees of Uganda?

    I will gladly live under black rule. Show me what you can do! Show me what is there to respect. Show me what their is to like amongstr your culture. All you have shown me to date is Muti murders, raping babies to cure aids, superstitious bollocks like the Tokoloshe and Ukwetwala, where you rape a 13 yo girl to make her your wife.

    Fuck off with your sanctimonious bullshit. You are currently at chapter 2...read the rest. Especially chapter 9 and 11 and go see for yourself.

    1. Don't forget the buying & selling of albino body-parts for their inherent magical powers!

  13. Anonymous1:48 am

    Mike you are lucky that you can hide behind these blogs and continue to talk such BS.One thing you will quickly realise is that the poison you publish on this site will one day realise in your life.

    I wish you all the luck in the world and can guarantee that you and your family have no place in South Africa let alone Africa but time will tell. Stay stupid and may God someday grant you wisdom to see the error in your ways.

    1. Most of us of European stock already know that Africa is the world's biggest garbage dump. Sooner or later the Afrikaners will realize this too and they will (sadly) leave. Then you'll have the entire dump to yourself (good job!). Btw, congratulations on taking a first-world developed nation with a burgeoning nuclear arsenal and turning it into a crime-ridden anal-wart of a failed state in record time (20 years to destroy what took 300+ to build). If country-destroying were an olympic sport, you'd be Oscar Pistorius!

  14. Love you stuff Mike - the truth stands out above these communists bull-shit. We will get back our land, South Africa. It was given to the whites by Elohim, Yehushua! These blacks WILL NOT stay in power. By the power of Him that gave it to us and our forefarthers. There is no way that +- 800 000 blacks can multiply to over 46 000 000 from the Anglo Boer war. They had to have come from sub-Saharan Africa.

  15. Love your stuff Mike - the truth is the truth. "Anonymous" idiot does not understands when he reads the truth. Like you said - they are so ignorant, you cannot tell them anything. They believe their own lies.

  16. Anonymous8:14 pm

    Africa and the West: From the slave trade to conquest, ...
    Do you know how the thousands of slaves that were shipped to the cape from Angola, Madagascar, Maritius ... how they were intergrated in SA?
    William H. Worger, ‎Nancy L. Clark, ‎Edward A. Alpers - 2010 - ‎History
    slaves. into. South. Africa. (1797). Despite the growing calls for abolition in the late ... For advice on this question, Macartney turned to W. S. van Ryneveld, who, despite ... another 2,100 “prize negroes” into the colony between 1808 and 1816.

  17. Anonymous7:10 am

    Mike you are a racist scum bag and a typical arrogant Afrikaner, you know nothing about how blacks suffered under apartheid under that brutal system blacks were oppressed, dehumanized and robbed of their dignity I know because I met black South Africans who lived under apartheid and are so glad it fell you bloody fake African Nazi. Lord Kitchener was right I wish you were born black under apartheid

    I am from the UK

    1. Anonymous3:45 pm

      Anonymous 7:10 You are a typical useless uneducated pommy scumbag. Anything that the South African regime may have done pales into insignificance compared to the swathe of death and destruction that your countrymen visited upon the globe in your endless search for riches for your monarch.

      You think because you forgot your own transgressions that took place not over decades but over centuries and are now a nation of (soon to be extinct) bleeding heart liberals that your crimes against humanity are expunged?

      I wonder how many of your direct ancestors were responsible for tying Indian mutineers to the muzzles of cannons? How many were involved in setting up the first concentration camps?

      How many African natives died horribly being worked and starved to death in your own ancestors colonial greed?

      Yes idiot. Your own country was the original architect of apartheid and is responsible for millions, yes, millions of murders in the name of your kings and queens. You met black South Africans that lived under apartheid. So that makes you an expert hey?

      If you didn't know before, now you know moron.

    2. What's also "funny" is how former colonies of the British empire are now some of the most developed places on Earth. I wonder where India would be if it has not once been part of the British Empire. I can tell you one thing: If they never were (part of the empire), there would probably lots more IT jobs here in the states, as Indians (instead of having jobs and a reasonable standard of living) would probably be busy dying of leprosy.

  18. Anonymous7:11 am

    Mike you are a racist scum bag and a typical arrogant Afrikaner, you know nothing about how blacks suffered under apartheid under that brutal system blacks were oppressed, dehumanized and robbed of their dignity I know because I met black South Africans who lived under apartheid and are so glad it fell you bloody fake African Nazi. Lord Kitchener was right I wish you were born black under apartheid

    I am from the UK

    1. A "Racist"? You say it almost as if it is a bad thing. Please tell what is your definition of a "Racist" and what criteria you use to judge me as one and then I can maybe answer you if I am one or not.

      "A typical arrogant Afrikaner"...Generalising a bit there, aren't we? Who is the prejudiced one now?

      You say you "have met black South Africans who lived under Apartheid"...Guess what...so have I. Thousands. Most told me Apartheid was better than the hellhole SA has become under the ANC. Hence the reason I wrote "Opening Pandora's Apartheid box".

      Apartheid a "brutal system"? Compared to what? The New (improved) South Africa? Where you have 20,000 murders a year and has become the rape capital of the world? Where 300.000 blacks die of HIV every year and the government believes garlic, lemon and beetroot will cure it. You certainly are a laugh a minute.

      "Oppressed, dehumanized and robbed of their dignity"...Oppression I can understand, but how do you "dehumanise" someone? You are either a human or you are not. If I stop calling a dog a dog and start calling him a pig, he is still a dog. How do you rob someone of his dignity? Dignity is not something you wear like a wallet. Dignity is the idea that a human being has the innate right to be respected and valued. Guess what...Respect is earned. You want me to value and respect you, then prove yourself. Only then you can feel dignified. Dignity is something I give to you not something that can be robbed. Utter bollocks!

      You call me "a bloody fake African Nazi"...So am I a Nazi or not then, because if I am a fake one I am not a real one? Ever heard of Godwin's law? Look it up in Wikipedia. The moment you called me a Nazi, you have lost the argument.

      I wish I was born black too. Why with racist anti-white policies like BEE and Affirmative Action I would have been a millionaire today.

    2. Anonymous4:05 am

      You are a hate filled Nazi who misses the old brutal apartheid regime, and I doubt for a SECOND that you have met thousands of black South Africans (who by the way are the REAL Africans) I think you are lying because fascists like you NEVER talk to blacks. The way blacks and so called coloureds were treated was appalling, there is no justification for apartheid, you should have born black. How would you like this statement, get over the Boer war FAKE African,no apology no regret.Strange how you see BEE as racist but not apartheid is it because you benefited and never suffered.

    3. Calling me a Nazi, a racist, a fascist and a Fake African is not an argument it is an invective. Childish name-calling. Shows your infantile mentality and inability to partake in constructive debate. You have been weighed and found wanting. Now piss off.

    4. Anonymous3:49 pm

      Funny how these pommies and other Euro types use derogatory and racist terms to berate those they don't agree with.

      I think this guy should have volunteered to serve in Afghanistan or Iraq so he could see first-hand what his bleeding heart liberal nation has wrought among the people of those countries.

      Not content with their own nations centuries old tradition of invading raping and pillaging and enslaving other nations they are still at it.

    5. Your "argument" (if you can call it that), is just as idiotic and infantile as the last guy's.